Do we really know who
they are?
Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together
against the Lord, and against his
Christ.
Many denominations of so-called
Christianity hold to the belief that the one called Jesus (the) Christ was the YHWH
(Yahweh/Jehovah/ etc.) God before his birth as baby Jesus. A few isolated scriptures are
used to support this position. An even larger segment of so-called Christianity focuses
entirely on “Jesus” and his “2nd Coming”, while totally ignoring God
the Father, His purpose, and His whereabouts. Both groups basically ignore the Father God.
One, by postponing any appearance of the Father on Earth for at least 1,000 years, and the
other, by never considering the Father’s interest in His creation
In a “kill two birds with one
stone” approach this compilation of scriptures and the accompanying comments is designed
to show that Jesus was not the God of the Old Testament and that the Father, who was
the God of the Old Testament, is intricately involved with the affairs on earth at the
time of the “2nd Coming” of His
Christ to such a degree that God’s very presence on earth is revealed. This article is
far from exhaustive and many scriptures naturally lend themselves to additional questions
and follow-up bible study.
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The
kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of
our Lord, and of his Christ; and he (here the ‘he’ refers
to the Lord and not to ‘his Christ’.) shall reign for ever and ever. (One
aside point, but relevant throughout: Most Christians have a Greek cultural view of
“heaven”, which exceeds the biblical usage. The meaning in the Greek must correspond
directly to the Hebrew word lest the bible be in conflict with itself. The way to verify
this is to compare a New Testament quote of an Old Testament scripture. Any inclusion of an “additional” cultural usage meaning to this
word is not valid. For a biblical explanation of just what and where “heaven” is
simply do a “word” study on it, or see the article, “The Actual Message of Matthew
24” which contains a brief and concise discourse on it.)
Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and
the kingdom of our God, and the
power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which
accused them before our God day and night. (So, it is God the
Father’s Kingdom after all?)
Revelation 7:10
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God
which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the
Lamb. (God is shown sitting (reigning) on a throne, why?)
Note: the use of the word “throne” throughout is not just a in
reference to a particular “seat” or chair, but rather frequently to a particular
“office” or authority.
Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of
the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and
God shall wipe away all tears from their
eyes. (Why is the Lamb feeding them, but God is wiping away the
tears? Do you know? And who are the ‘them’ being fed and having their tears dried? Do
you think you know? Are you sure? Do you know why they are not ‘the church’?)
Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are
they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men,
being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Who made them “firstfruits” and when? Why are they
firstfruits to both the Lamb and the Father?)
Revelation 14:10
The same shall
drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is
poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and
in the presence of the Lamb: (Why does God pour out His wrath
on the Beast power? Are the angels and the Lamb just observing as witnesses?)
Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and
the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just
and true are thy ways, thou King of saints (Do you know why these
‘saints’ are NOT the ‘church? Who are they? Why call Him “King”?)
Revelation 19:9
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage
supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Who
is called to the marriage supper of the Lamb and why?)
Revelation 19:17
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to
all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto
the supper of the great God; (Notice
that it is not the Lamb’s/Christ’s supper.)
Revelation 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord
God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (It would
appear that both the Father and the Son are present together in this place. Do you know
why? Do you know why or how these two “are” the temple of “it” (the city)?).
Revelation 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the
glory of God did lighten it, and the
Lamb is the light thereof. (For the “glory” of the Father
to lighten this place He must be in it, and look, so is the Lamb!)
Revelation 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of
the throne of God and of the Lamb. (Now we see that God
and the Lamb are both on “the” throne. What throne is it? Where did it come from? What
is it?)
Revelation 22:3
And there shall be no more curse: but the
throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his (Do you
know who ‘his’ servants are, and why the servants are serving God?)
servants shall serve him:
Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath
declared to his servants the prophets. (Notice that it is not
‘as Christ has declared’ …. See the following:)
Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry
times and in divers manners spake in time past unto
the fathers by the prophets, 2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath
appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and
upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat
down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(Notice that in Revelation there is clear continuity between ‘God’ and his
‘Christ’, or ‘God’ and the ‘Lamb’, and so on. This is the same continuity
present in theses verses of Hebrews where we read, ‘God’ [who must be the Father] and
‘his Son’. Likewise, the specific reference to ‘God’ speaking with ‘us’ in
these last [here, recent] days [specifically, after the ministry of John the Baptist] “by”
his Son expresses two distinct and unmistakable thoughts. First, that the Son is not
whoever this ‘God’ figure is, as they are portrayed as two different entities. That
is,unless you accept the trinity, in which case one might as well completely eliminate the
distinction demanded by the grammar. Secondly, the use of the word “by”
in ‘by his Son’ is particularly of note in that this use of the Greek ‘en’
denotes the ‘instrument’ ‘by which’ God has spoken through and this instrument for
speaking through is therefore definitely not this particular God, but again, a separate
entity from this God. This use of ‘en’ is exactly the same as used
{for “by”} in verse 1 when referring to the ‘prophets’, none of whom were God {the
Father} either. The translators have translated the Greek ‘en’
to the English “by” perfectly in verses 1
and 2.)
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I
saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus, and for the word of God (Notice
that Jesus and God are both again identified separately.), and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their
foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Psalms 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O
Lord; and shall glorify thy name. (Notice
that this is not Jesus Christ’s ‘name’.)
Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there
be one LORD, and his name one. (How does this square with Acts
4:26, Revelation 11:15, Revelation 12:10, if Christ is Yahweh, the God of the Old
Testament as some promote?)
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my
name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto
my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD
of hosts. (Another verse that indicates that Christ was not YHWH,
the God of Israel.)
Psalms 110:4 The LORD (YHWH, the God of the Old Testament)
hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou (therefore it is not the ‘LORD’ who is the priest, but another.) art a
priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 7:17 For he (the LORD in Psalms 110:4)
testifieth, Thou (You) (Here,
Paul is speaking of Jesus the Christ as being this ‘priest’.) art a priest for
ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and
the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7)
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne
of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with
justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Here,
Yahweh determines to accomplish these things in his son. Please note closely what it says
here and what is not said.)
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a
kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other
people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand
for ever. (Nothing here about the Anointed One – Christ. This
kingdom is God’s.)
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine
(yours) is the
kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. (The
Father’s kingdom! Jesus did not say, ‘for mine is the kingdom’.)
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and
shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the
Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33) And he
shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Doesn’t
this pretty well explain and answer any apparent ‘conflicts’ in scripture concerning
just whose kingdom it is, Yahweh’s or Christ’s? Doesn’t it also show that there is a
difference between the ‘Lord God’ and the ‘Son’ of the Lord God?)
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. (Jesus
said to pray that the Father’s kingdom come.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith,
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy
kingdom. (So is Paul confused? How can it be the Son’s throne
and kingdom?
1 Chronicles 29:11
Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and
the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine
is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all. (Just
like in the First Commandment? Just like the way of prayer that Jesus taught to his
disciples? It is the Father’s Kingdom, isn’t it? Keep reading.
1 Chronicles 29:23
Then
Solomon sat on the
throne of the LORD
as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. (Have
David, Solomon, and the subsequent seed down to the present day been seated on the throne
of the God of the Old Testament? Do you know where that throne is located today? If you
do, then you know who is presently sitting on it. So,
this is the throne that God will share with Jesus and that Jesus will “take over” when
He comes, but who will they reign over? Why?)
Psalms 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the
nations. (Over who?)
Psalms 45:6
¶ Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
(See Hebrews 1:8 above.)
Psalms 145:11 They (Who are “they”?) shall speak
of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy
power; 12)
To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his
kingdom. 13) Thy kingdom is an everlasting
kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations. (Does
this mean that since it was ongoing when this was originally written and that it is an
“everlasting” kingdom that it must be somewhere on earth today?)
Psalms 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and
the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9) Thou shalt break them with a rod
of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. 10) ¶ Be wise now
therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11) Serve the LORD with
fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12) Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from
the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust
in him. (Someone will inherit the non-Israelite peoples of the
earth? As living, breathing humans?)
Psalms 110:5
¶ The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings
in the day of his wrath. (The Day of the Lord (Yahweh), not the day of the Lamb, or Christ/ Messiah/
Anointed One, or Jesus.) 6) He shall
judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the
heads over many countries. (Who will? The Lord – Yahweh -
the God of the Old Testament will.)
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came
and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (Yes,
after his mission was accomplished, and Who gave it to him?)
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?
for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11) For it is written (in
the Old Testament), As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me (Yahweh),
and every tongue shall confess to God (Does
this mean ‘the Father’ will be there too?). 12) So then every one of us shall
give account of himself to God (Notice, God is not the Lamb here,
unless you are a Trinitarian, but then if you are, what happened to the Holy Spirit? It
keeps missing out on the good stuff..).
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the
heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35)
Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36) Therefore
let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus,
whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Does it make sense
that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH, is the Father of Jesus the Christ, and is still
the God of the New Testament as well? YHWH is the God of Israel?)
A little extra to cement the deal.
Acts
5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a
tree. (OK, but how do we know that the “God of our fathers”
was not a preexistent Jesus Christ?)
Acts
3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our
fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in
the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. (How
can the God of Abraham be the one that became Jesus, if Jesus was his son?)
Just
to show that this last scripture was not a fluke:
Acts
7:32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the
God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. (And
this was quoted from where?)
Exodus
3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of
Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid
to look upon God. (Oh.)
Well,
the rest is up to you. If you think that something has been overlooked, then by all means
please let me know what. If you have scripture that trumps anything listed here, by all
means make me aware of it. Unless you are able to offer a counter-proposal I am forced to
conclude at this point that Jesus was not the God of the Old Testament.
As
for the second point in question, the Father is alive and well, and very involved in
matters at hand. He will be here in person soon. It would appear that His Son will not be
far behind.
A
final thought. When we find a particular scripture that “seems” to contradict another,
or other scriptures, then we have a bible “in” conflict with itself. However, if we
believe the bible to be infallible, then the problem lies with us, not the bible. It is
our understanding that is lacking on the point in conflict. A “conflict” in scripture
is resolved by finding the information on that point in conflict that adds information
previously unknown or unrealized, which results in the elimination of the “conflict. If
this were practiced by more, more often, there might be less “conflicts” between those
claiming to be in the Body of Christ.
Your
thoughts?
Richard Fix
September 2003
The
Lord and his Christ